1 1 2 STATE OF NEW YORK COUNTY OF ONONDAGA 3 WAYS and MEANS COMMITTEE ------------------------------------------- 4 In the Matter of the 5 2016 Tentative Annual Operating Budget 6 7 ------------------------------------------- 8 PUBLIC HEARING in the above matter, conducted at the Onondaga County Court House Legislative 9 Room, 4th Floor, 401 Montgomery Street, Syracuse, New York before JOHN F. DRURY, CSR, Notary Public 10 in and for the State of New York, on October 8, 2015 at 7:00 p.m. 11 ONONDAGA COUNTY LEGISLATORS PRESENT: 12 1st BRIAN F. MAY 13 2nd JOHN C. DOUGHERTY 3rd JIM CORL 14 4th JUDITH A. TASSONE 5th KATHLEEN A. RAPP 15 6th MICHAEL E. PLOCHOCKI 7th DANNY J. LIEDKA 16 8th (CHRISTOPHER J. RYAN - not present) 9th PEGGY CHASE 17 10th KEVIN A. HOLMQUIST 11th PATRICK M. KILMARTIN 18 12th DAVID H. KNAPP, Chair of Ways & Means 13th DEREK T. SHEPARD, JR. 19 14th CASEY E. JORDAN 15th J. RYAN McMAHON, II, Chairman 20 16th MONICA WILLIAMS 17th LINDA R. ERVIN 21 Clerk of Legislature: Deborah T. Maturo. 22 23 Reported By: 24 John F. Drury, CSR, RPR Court Reporter 471-7397 25 2 1 2 INDEX TO SPEAKERS 3 SPEAKERS PAGES 4 MICHAEL HUNGERFORD ACTS 5 5 VIRGINIA CARMODY Literacy Coalition 11 6 JASON ZEIGLER Assigned Counsel Program 18 7 RABBI JOE MURRAY The Grace Project 30 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 Chairman Knapp 2 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Good evening. 3 Like to call the meeting to order. The 4 public hearing on the -- tonight's 5 public hearing is on the proposed 2016 6 budget, included in the capital 7 improvement plan, the schedule of rates 8 to be charged for water and water 9 service; and the report of the Ways and 10 Means Committee. 11 As always, please check the exits 12 closest to you, just in case. I ask 13 everybody to check their cell phones, 14 make sure those are off. And we'll get 15 started. 16 Just briefly, as far as the budget 17 in general, I think it has been a very 18 smooth process this year. I think we 19 are able to, we had a very good and 20 sound budget that was presented to us by 21 the County Executive and her team. And 22 we made some tweaks to it, and I think 23 we're able to accomplish our goals, 24 still kept the levy a little bit, put 25 some money away in our debt stabilization 4 1 Chairman Knapp 2 fund for down the road, and still do 3 everything we wanted. So all in all, I 4 think we had a very good year, and I 5 thank all of you for your participation. 6 It's a long process and so, but we are 7 coming to the end. So with that, are 8 there any Legislators who would like to 9 speak beforehand? 10 If not, I will now open the public 11 meeting to responses. I have three 12 right now. If you have not signed in 13 and would like to speak, please come up 14 to the front and see Darcie, and she 15 will get your information. Otherwise 16 we'd like to keep the comments to about 17 three minutes to keep things moving 18 along. 19 A reminder, this is a budget public 20 hearing, so we are talking about the 21 2016 budget, and those other items that 22 I just talked about. So if you could 23 keep your comments to that we would 24 appreciate it. And with that we will 25 start out with Michael Hungerford of 305 5 1 Hungerford 2 Cherry Road, Syracuse, with ACTS. 3 MICHAEL HUNGERFORD: Thank you, very 4 much. Is there a way I can get one page 5 documented entered into the record? 6 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Absolutely, just 7 give that to me. That is just one other 8 thing, before you get started, if you 9 have written comments, just submit that. 10 Thank you very much. And we will make 11 sure those are part of the record. 12 MICHAEL HUNGERFORD: Thank you, very 13 much, appreciate the opportunity to come 14 here this evening and to speak to the 15 Legislators who are a part of our county 16 government. ACTS, if you don't already 17 know, is an alliance of communities, 18 primarily, but not exclusively faith 19 communities, that work on advancing 20 justice in this community. And we've 21 been doing that over the years. 22 And part of what we try to do, I am 23 the co-chair of the ACTS Criminal 24 Justice Task Force. And we try to 25 identify important issues that are 6 1 Hungerford 2 affecting people in the Onondaga County 3 area. 4 Early this year one of the member 5 organizations of ACTS, from Grace 6 Episcopal Church came to the Task Force 7 and told is about a very concerning 8 situation. That situation is that 9 youth, 16 and 17 year old youth, are 10 being held in solitary confinement at 11 the Jamesville Penitentiary. Now, many 12 of you probably are aware that 13 previously they were held at the Justice 14 Center. And some time around the end of 15 April last year, because of overcrowding 16 conditions at the Justice Center, they 17 were moved out to Jamesville. 18 And we're not aware of what the 19 situation was while they were at the 20 Justice Center. We don't think it was 21 quite as extensive in terms of the 22 numbers and the length of the solitary 23 confinement that some of these youth, 24 children really, were subjected to at 25 the Justice Center. But we do know that 7 1 Hungerford 2 now at Jamesville they are there for 3 very minor kinds of offenses, and 4 they're kept in solitary confinement for 5 extended periods of time. 6 We had one youth come to the people 7 involved who do the visitation from 8 Grace Church, the youth came to them and 9 told them that he had just gotten out of 10 solitary confinement after 75 days. 11 Another youth was kept in solitary 12 confinement for 29 days. So you can see 13 the length of the period of time that 14 we're talking about. And it can be 15 anything ranging from normal teenage 16 behaviors to something much more serious 17 that has to be dealt with, of course. 18 We think that one of the problems is 19 that there is not sufficient programs 20 and services being provided to those 21 youth. And that's why they get in 22 trouble. There is long periods of time, 23 they are unstructured, that they don't 24 have activities for. And we think that 25 that's one way that the amount of 8 1 Hungerford 2 solitary confinement that's used could 3 be reduced. 4 We've offered to work with the 5 Department of Corrections and with 6 Commissioner Cowin, and to develop more 7 programs and develop more activities for 8 the youth. So far the Commissioner 9 Cowin, unfortunately, has not taken us 10 up on that offer. So we've been looking 11 into this situation since the beginning 12 of the year. We made a Freedom of 13 Information Act request, we got data 14 from the County. And none of that data 15 that we have and was provided to us 16 shows that there are serious acting out 17 problems with these youth. 18 You may have heard that from 19 Commissioner Cowin, we don't believe 20 it's true, and we don't think, and we 21 haven't been provided with anything that 22 documents and supports that contention 23 of his. So we think, and we want to, 24 and we demand at this time, that the 25 solitary, use of solitary confinement 9 1 Hungerford 2 for youth be ended. It's a very, very 3 damaging thing for youth. They are in 4 the formative years of their lives, and 5 being placed in solitary. There is all 6 kinds of studies and investigations that 7 have been done by other people, it shows 8 that they suffer severely when they are 9 placed into solitary confinement. 10 Indeed, some commentators have called 11 that torture. And we don't think that 12 our government and our personnel in 13 Onondaga County, our youth in Onondaga 14 County, should not be subjected to that 15 kind of harmful policies. 16 So obviously, the budget may have to 17 be adjusted in order to accommodate 18 additional youth activities and programs 19 at Jamesville Correctional Facility. 20 And again, that's something that we 21 would be more than willing to work with, 22 Commissioner Cowin and others in the 23 Department of Corrections in order to 24 develop those things that would work 25 best. And we urge you to give 10 1 Hungerford 2 directions to Commissioner Cowin to do 3 just exactly that. If you have any 4 questions, if you have any concerns, the 5 phone number is at the bottom of the 6 page that's been passed out. We'd be 7 glad to respond to any questions. And 8 we'll be talking, we've been following 9 up with some of you already. And we 10 would be glad to follow-up with any of 11 the rest of you who would like to meet 12 with us and talk about this situation. 13 We think it's an important issue 14 that needs to be dealt with as soon as 15 possible. There are youth out there 16 tonight who are in solitary confinement. 17 They've stopped using solitary 18 confinement at Rikers Island in New York 19 City, and I think if they can do it 20 there, we should be able to do it here 21 in Onondaga County. Thank you, very 22 much, appreciate it. And I hope to 23 speak with any of you who have any 24 questions following this meeting. 25 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Thank you. Next 11 1 Carmody 2 we have Virginia Carmody, Literacy 3 Coalition of Onondaga County. 4 VIRGINIA CARMODY: Good evening, my 5 name is Virginia Carmody, and thank you 6 for this opportunity to speak. As the 7 Executive Director of the Literacy 8 Coalition of Onondaga County, I offer 9 our vision of a hundred percent literacy 10 to a hundred percent community 11 engagement. That is the community 12 impact strategy that seeks the 13 coordinated pipeline of programs and 14 services that support children and their 15 families. 16 The reality is that a staggering 91 17 percent of Syracuse City School District 18 3rd graders are not reading at grade 19 level. The 3rd grade milestone marks 20 the point when children shift from 21 learning to read, to reading to learn. 22 Students who have not mastered reading 23 by that time are more likely to get 24 stuck in a cycle of academic failure, 25 drop out of school, go throughout their 12 1 Carmody 2 lives all at a cost their families and 3 our community cannot afford. 4 It's again, this backdrop that we 5 launched Dolly Parton's Imagination 6 Library in May of 2010. This program 7 not only provides books to children, but 8 establishes a tracking system that is 9 targeted and measurable. With 10 unparalleled frequency and duration, new 11 age-appropriate books are mailed monthly 12 to enrolled children from birth to age 13 5. Given the concentration of poverty 14 in the City of Syracuse, our pilot 15 started in the initial zip code areas 16 13203 and 13208, within the School 17 District's North Quadrant, and that was 18 with the support of the Central New York 19 Community Foundation. Then we expanded 20 to zip code 13204, the District's West 21 Quadrant, with support of the Reisman 22 Foundation, and thereby covered half of 23 the City of Syracuse. 24 Through the leadership of County 25 Executive Mahoney and support from 13 1 Carmody 2 Syracuse Mayor Miner, we expanded 3 throughout the City of Syracuse this 4 year, and have now enrolled 6,984 5 children, and distributed 93,398 books. 6 We work with over 80 community referral 7 partners, such as all the area hospitals 8 now, Catholic Charities and Head Start 9 to name a few. But in particular, one 10 of our strongest partners is Onondaga 11 County Departments of Children's Family, 12 Health Department, the Healthy Families 13 and Jobs Plus. They have facilitated 14 together an enrollment of 2,319 15 children. 16 In addition, we have awarded over 17 $250,000 over the past five years in 18 Literacy Champion Grants. These Grants 19 are used to further leverage impact of 20 the books, and provide family literacy 21 programming. That is done in 22 collaboration with a number of partners, 23 including the top of the list is the 24 Rosamond Gifford Zoo, the Onondaga 25 County Public Library, InterFaith Works, 14 1 Carmody 2 Child Care Solutions, and Children's 3 Consortium. With that process we have 4 engaged over 2,700 families. 5 A number of research studies have 6 made a compelling case for early 7 education as a critical public 8 investment. Early literacy specifically 9 has proven to be a reliable indicator of 10 a child's future success in school. 11 Consequently this has led to our focus 12 on the importance of regular reading to 13 children as a means to develop the 14 skills necessary to enter kindergarten 15 ready to learn. In particular, our 16 strategy has a dual generation focus 17 that seeks to fully involve parents, 18 which we know are the children's first 19 and most important teacher. 20 In addition, ongoing research 21 conducted by LeMoyne College from the 22 beginning of our program has shown 23 significant positive results for the 24 Imagination Library, including the fact 25 that it has a positive effect on family 15 1 Carmody 2 reading, regardless of child's age, 3 gender, family income, parental 4 education, race, parental nation of 5 birth and primary language. We have 6 also been monitoring enrolled children 7 through the use of an automated monthly 8 dashboard. 9 This past August we were 10 particularly thrilled to announce our 11 latest results that the LeMoyne 12 researchers had done, which compared the 13 Syracuse School District children, we 14 finally had the cohort large enough to 15 start the program from birth, now 16 entering kindergarten. 17 So what we did was, not me, the 18 researchers did was, able to work with 19 the School District's data people, and 20 they were able to match our children 21 going to kindergarten. Also set up a 22 control group that matched the same 23 demographics. That information showed 24 that the children in the program 25 outperformed non-enrollees by 28.9 16 1 Carmody 2 percent. The Imagination Library 3 program also outperformed the Onondaga 4 County average. These results then led 5 County Executive Mahoney to support 6 expansion of Imagination Library to all 7 children, birth through age 5, 8 throughout Onondaga County. And I put a 9 book in front of you. This is the 10 Welcome Book. Each child receives this 11 book and thereafter they receive an age 12 appropriate book. So it's 60 books they 13 receive. 14 So another quick note, the Literacy 15 Coalition made a strategic decision to 16 join the Annie E. Casey Foundation-led 17 Campaign for Grade Level Reading. 18 There are more than 150 communities 19 across the country, including Syracuse, 20 that are focused on getting students on 21 track for grade level reading by the end 22 of 3rd grade. We are now charter 23 members of a national movement of local 24 governments, non-profits, foundations 25 and others, adopting a collective impact 17 1 Carmody 2 strategy that engages the full community 3 around focussing on three challenges 4 that keep children from learning, to 5 read well. They are school readiness, 6 which is our Imagination Library, the 7 center piece of, also issued the chronic 8 absence, and summer learning loss. 9 So I hope you agree that we are 10 targeted, ready, realistic about the 11 challenges before us. We know that 12 nothing is more basic, more essential, 13 more foundational and more important to 14 a child's success in life than an 15 ability to read well. Together this is 16 a problem we can solve. If we reach the 17 entire community to bear on the 18 challenges that keep children from 19 reading well. Thank you all for your 20 support. 21 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Thank you. And 22 thank you for our little take home book. 23 Everybody's is the same? 24 VIRGINIA CARMODY: Welcome Book is 25 all the same. 18 1 Zeigler 2 CHAIRMAN KNAPP: For all of us who 3 got here tonight? 4 VIRGINIA CARMODY: Yes. 5 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Kevin Holmquist's 6 stories also have that. Next we have 7 Jason Zeigler, the Onondaga County 8 Assigned Counsel Panel and Onondaga 9 County Gideon Society. 10 JASON ZEIGLER: Hello, I just saw 11 you Mr. Casey. I'm going to try to keep 12 my comments really focused on the 13 budget. I came and watched the Assigned 14 Counsel portion of the budget hearing. 15 There was some questions and comments, I 16 wanted to start with that. One of the 17 questions, I believe was from Ms. Chase 18 was, with the proposed increase would 19 that address the complaints that have 20 been coming from the Panel attorneys? 21 And I can assure you it does not. From 22 what I understand this increase is based 23 on an increased case load, essentially 24 maintains the status quo. 25 Back in 2004 the range for assigned 19 1 Zeigler 2 work were raised by the state 3 substantially. What we were paid is 4 supposed to be dictated by a state 5 statute. The rate prior to 2004 had 6 been put into effect, from what I'm 7 told, in the mid '80s. I was about 8 eight years old then. From what I'm 9 told, and I got my law license in 2006 10 in this state and 2005 in Pennsylvania 11 and New Jersey is when I graduated law 12 school. The rates went up in 2004. 13 For people in our group in the 14 Gideon Society, who were on the Assigned 15 Counsel Board at that time, you know 16 I've been told there was a cost study 17 that was done by the County. The County 18 went to look at what were the most cost 19 effective options given the options that 20 the County has in providing for indigent 21 defendants. Really four options. 22 Three options, first one being a 23 Public Defenders Office, second one 24 being Legal Aid Society, third one being 25 a plan of a Bar Association. The fourth 20 1 Zeigler 2 essentially being some sort of hybrid, 3 which is what we have here. Hiscock 4 Legal Aid is another primary provider of 5 indigent representation in Family Court. 6 The Assigned Counsel Panel, ACP Panel 7 for criminal courts. We also have 8 Family Court appeals for all hearings. 9 Around that time even though the 10 costing was done, apparently the 11 increase in cost was somewhat 12 unsuccessful for the Legislature to 13 control, you know, what they were 14 spending on this. So rules were put 15 into place that essentially, the 16 practice of law didn't change, but it 17 was an attempt to say, we're not going 18 to pay for this, we're not going to pay 19 for that. These rules contradict the 20 statute. There's been litigation. A 21 lot of really the nuts and bolts of 22 whether that complies is ruled on by the 23 Appellate Courts. 24 Frankly, the Court decision that 25 have laid down, the Assigned Counsel 21 1 Zeigler 2 Program has essentially ignored this. 3 And I think a lot of the issues didn't 4 get decided because of the O'Hara 5 (phonetic) case that was pending at this 6 time. 7 Fast forward 11 years later, we had 8 a real deterioration in the quality of 9 representation, probably to the point 10 where we were one of five counties in 11 that O'Hara lawsuit. There was talk 12 during the budget hearing of the state 13 taking in some money to help pay for 14 some of the compliance of that lawsuit. 15 I can tell you as an attorney practicing 16 on the Panel, as somebody in growing up 17 with the organization of Panel attorneys 18 that are very dissatisfied with 19 essentially getting ripped off. That 20 first off, that money, that million 21 dollars is going to five counties, not 22 just this. Nobody knows how it's going 23 to be spread out. 24 Not just the O'Hara lawsuit, there 25 was actually a case last year where the 22 1 Zeigler 2 Fourth Department, the intervening 3 appellate court, in which we are under, 4 sent a case back for the ineffective 5 assistance of counsel. And some of the 6 points of that pointed up that the 7 attorney had not seen his client for the 8 six months he had represented him and 9 missed very important things in his 10 defense. 11 What's the cost of a case coming 12 back? You know, I think a lot of 13 decisions that have been made have been 14 really short term focus on how do we 15 make this budget? And it wasn't really, 16 it didn't really comply with the cost 17 study. And I think over time, you know, 18 as you've had attorneys sue, who 19 couldn't be paid, had bills unduly 20 delayed, seems to be some sort of 21 mandate, where instead of singling 22 people out, they're spreading the pain, 23 so to speak. And you got a lot of 24 people that were upset. 25 You know, one of the Legislators 23 1 Zeigler 2 commented, and I think it was a request 3 for a pay increase for the staff. 4 Personally I have no position on this. 5 But somebody commented that the 6 attorneys, you know, the rate is set by 7 statute, and it is. Frankly the County 8 doesn't pay. If I go file a motion and 9 I get told, you know, you shouldn't have 10 filed motions, despite the fact it got 11 the case dismissed, which is a lot 12 cheaper than trial. I still have to do 13 that. 14 Making this budget, that really has 15 no bearing what the attorneys need to do 16 and expecting the lawsuit would somehow 17 end is unrealistic. When somebody puts 18 in a voucher say $500 for what they did, 19 and they turn around and see $300 of 20 that, they get ripped off. They're 21 going to do the work, they're still 22 going to do the work. 23 Not every bill gets processed. Road 24 blocks are still being put up to that. 25 I think in response to the question of, 24 1 Zeigler 2 will this increase in the budget amount 3 address the attorney issues? The answer 4 that was given was, well, the voucher 5 process times have increased. For me 6 things have improved. I mean I was a 7 target. I complained a lot. But when I 8 put it on the list for the Gideon 9 Society, some of the attorneys said that 10 the statute of the law that their 11 vouchers are slower than ever. 12 What you had is, well, we'll back 13 off on these people, put it in to all 14 these other ones. So you had 15 essentially a growing group of people 16 really going to get off the Panel and 17 sue you on the way out. 18 When getting your information I 19 would ask you to consider the source. 20 Try not to throw stones, but if somebody 21 has a vested interest in making sure 22 everything is fine and keeping you 23 happy, how far are they willing to go to 24 keep that going? You know, I think when 25 I first started writing, first started 25 1 Zeigler 2 getting singled out, I was one of maybe 3 two or three people who seemed to be 4 vocal about the problem. No one is 5 going to fix the system based on one or 6 two people, it's probably not the 7 system. I think those days are past. 8 There is a lot more of us, it seems to 9 be growing. People who a few years ago 10 didn't want to get involved, you know 11 were worried that those of us who aired 12 our voice, our complaints, somehow bring 13 the system down, are now joining the 14 Gideon Society. 15 I appreciate the fact that through 16 the last few years, you know, we have 17 been able to talk to some of the 18 Legislators, meet with the County 19 Executive. From my understanding from 20 the paper there was a meeting, initially 21 the services office in Albany, New York 22 State Defenders Association about maybe 23 how can we get the state to pay for 24 this? I think most of us support that. 25 Obviously the budget has been a big 26 1 Zeigler 2 point of contention. But when it comes 3 to the budget, this isn't an example of 4 say the County PD's office where the 5 work isn't getting done. This is where 6 some of the work is getting done, and 7 not all that is getting paid for. That 8 is going to cause the people to do less, 9 that in turn gets you sued by the NY 10 CLU, it's just a downhill spiral. 11 The statute itself, under County Law 12 7, Article 18B Section 722. The County 13 when it comes to the defense, the state 14 essentially has dumped this on the 15 counties. That was part of the O'Hara 16 lawsuit. Under the current statute the 17 County gets to pick its poison. I 18 believe the County went with what they 19 felt was the lowest, most cost effective 20 option. But it seems to have been taken 21 a step further. 22 I think that a lot of the things 23 going on, its a long story, there is a 24 lot going on, nobody seems to be treated 25 the same. I appreciate the openness, I 27 1 Zeigler 2 appreciate the growing amount of 3 questions. I would ask when deciding 4 what is going to be appropriate, have 5 some thought to the long term. There is 6 a lawsuit pending right now, there is 7 probably more coming down. It comes 8 down to somebody gets in a car accident, 9 they're owed a hundred grand. Shut the 10 practice down, Assigned Counsel refuses 11 to pay them. You cannot expect a 12 disabled person not to sue you for money 13 they're owed when you've done the work. 14 I myself was sued in January. Assigned 15 Counsel stopped processing my bills. 16 How is that going to look in front of a 17 jury? I'm not alone in that kind of 18 treatment. 19 So I want to say thank you for 20 taking, you know, a little more of the 21 open-mindedness, hearing us out on this. 22 I would ask that you would talk to some 23 of us that actually do the work, and 24 some of the practical problems we have. 25 I don't think anybody has a real problem 28 1 Zeigler 2 with oversight. You know there's always 3 going to be somebody trying to cheat the 4 system. But we face, you know, the 5 oversight being abused. We're being 6 told you went to court too much. When 7 we have a program that will lie about 8 how that process is being applied. 9 They told Legal Services Office, 10 that's only being applied for double 11 billing and fraud. We told them that's 12 not true. Showed them documentary 13 evidence where they're telling us you 14 went to court too much. Spent too much 15 time talking to your client, to the DA, 16 the Court, you filed motions in the 17 case. These are things that we are 18 supposed to do. 19 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: If you can wrap 20 it up, appreciate it. 21 JASON ZEIGLER: I'll close with 22 this. You were told that statutorily 23 the Assigned Counsel Program has a duty 24 to review every single bill that we 25 submit. That's not true. The only duty 29 1 Zeigler 2 they have under statute is to make sure 3 the attorneys are rotating. In other 4 words, you go down the list, there isn't 5 favoritism, nepotism or not. That's the 6 one thing they won't do. Instead you 7 have an apparatus that's designed to 8 harass us, cut our bills. I don't know 9 why they do. Statutorily here the Judge 10 is supposed to review the vouchers. 11 And, you know, the County is so in a 12 mess, it seems to be I think if you go 13 ahead and settle it, we're going to have 14 to comply with it, with the decision of 15 the Fourth Department, going to have to 16 do our jobs that Assigned Counsel says. 17 I think you're going to see an increase 18 in the attorneys bills because they're 19 no longer going to be able to just do 20 just the minimum. Not even the minimum. 21 Just plead people out instead of doing 22 their job. Kind of not bring attention 23 on themselves and their County. So I 24 ask you to take a look at the long term, 25 true cost of the long run. The current 30 1 Rabbi Murray 2 budget, it would actually take that to 3 the fund, especially pay people for the 4 work they've already performed. Thank 5 you. 6 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Thank you. Next 7 we have Rabbi Joe Murray of the Grace 8 Project. 9 RABBI JOE MURRAY: Thank you. My 10 name is Rabbi Joe Murray. The Grace 11 Project is a ministry out of my wife's 12 church. She's the Rector at Grace 13 Episcopal church, a rather historic 14 church in town. And once a week she 15 goes to Jamesville. And she visits with 16 unsentenced minor males, aged 16 and 17. 17 They used to be at the Justice Center, 18 now they're at Jamesville. 19 And there was a time when we went in 20 there where we actually went into what's 21 called Unit 2. Now, as many of you know 22 Jamesville is and has historically been 23 where you send people who are sentenced. 24 The ones I'm talking about are 16 and 17 25 year olds mostly unsentenced minors. So 31 1 Rabbi Murray 2 if somebody says, you can only ask one 3 question, Joe, and it has to be a budget 4 question, my question would be this: 5 How much would it take to stop 6 putting 16 and 17 year old unsentenced 7 minor males, mostly black and Latino, 8 into solitary confinement. 9 Now, the moment you say solitary 10 confinement to the jail administration 11 at Jamesville, they're going to say, oh, 12 we don't do that, we don't do solitary 13 confinement. Here's the euphemism. The 14 euphemism is punitive segregation. They 15 can call it whatever they want, they 16 spend days or weeks or months in the 17 cell by themselves. That assumes they 18 don't go to "the box," which is Unit 1. 19 And then somebody said, okay, Joe, 20 you've asked your budget question. If 21 you can only ask one question of every 22 single members of the Legislature, the 23 question would be this: Have you been 24 to Unit 2? 25 Because if you talk to the head of 32 1 Rabbi Murray 2 corrections he'll say, we're really open 3 about what we do here. Everybody is 4 invited to come here. So I urge you, if 5 you decide to come up with the number to 6 stop the solitary confinement of 7 unsentenced minor males, if you decide 8 to ask that question and come up with an 9 answer, before you decide what to do 10 with it, take Mr. Cowin up on his offer 11 and knock on his door and say: I want 12 to go to Unit 2. I want to see the 16 13 and 17 year olds. I want to see what 14 you're doing with their time. I want to 15 see how many guards you have assigned to 16 that one unit. 17 And I can tell you, because I just 18 double checked it with one of four kids 19 I was with earlier this evening, who 20 have been in solitary confinement, who 21 have been in Jamesville, and it's one. 22 One. 23 So, if you haven't been there, I 24 assure you, it will be an exciting time. 25 And one of the reasons it will be 33 1 Rabbi Murray 2 exciting is, because if you walk up to 3 one of the 16 and 17 year olds and talk 4 to them, they'll actually be honest with 5 you. One of the fascinating things 6 about these young men, unlike those of 7 us our age, is they actually take 8 responsibility for themselves, and they 9 will actually tell you what's really 10 happening. But you'll have to pay 11 attention to detail. 12 You have to say, okay, now that I'm 13 in Unit 2, how come I see faces behind 14 some of those doors and not the others? 15 The reason you see faces on the other 16 side of the door, like you're at a zoo, 17 is because they are the ones who are 18 locked in. 19 So I leave you with the budgetary 20 question, because sooner or later 21 solitary confinement of unsentenced 22 minor males in Onondaga County, the only 23 place it's happening, sooner or later it 24 will end. Until then, the budgetary 25 question is, how much will it take in 34 1 Chairman Knapp 2 dollars and cents to stop it? Thank 3 you. 4 LEGISLATOR KNAPP: Thank you. Are 5 there any other speakers who would like 6 to come forward and speak tonight? 7 Seeing none, I will declare the comment 8 period, the public comment period 9 closed. 10 And are there any Legislators who 11 would like to make any final comments on 12 the record? Being none, like I said at 13 the beginning, this has been a very good 14 process so far. We will have the final 15 vote on the budget next Tuesday. There 16 is a lot of work goes into this, you 17 know, over $1.26 billion budget. So 18 again, like to thank the County 19 Executive, Pete Morgan, the finance 20 department. And of course our 21 Legislative staff led by our Clerk 22 Debbie Maturo and Susan Stanczyk, our 23 Director of Legislative Budget Review 24 and Katherine French, Darcie Lesniak. 25 Kim Memory, Bill Kinne, and Mary Ellen 35 1 2 Britt, who all have spent lots of 3 evenings and weekends making sure this 4 all went smoothly for us. So thank you 5 very much to them, and declare the 6 public hearing ended. Thank you. 7 [Conclusion of Public Hearing.] 8 * * * * 9 C E R T I F I C A T E 10 This is to certify that I am a 11 Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary 12 Public in and for the State of New York, 13 that I attended and reported the above 14 entitled proceedings, that I have 15 compared the foregoing with my original 16 minutes taken therein and that it is a 17 true and correct transcript thereof and 18 all of the proceedings had therein. 19 20 _______________________ 21 John F. Drury, CSR 22 23 Dated: October 16, 2015 24 25