Transcript of public hearing
Public hearing regarding the proposed Clinton Street Sewer Improvement Project
Required by the
January 20, 1998 Amended Consent Judgment concerning Onondaga Lake
Hearing date: February 22, 2006
Note:
The public comment period ends on March 23, 2006.
Click here to send comments by email.
After that date, we will respond formally both
to issues raised in the public hearing
and to issues
submitted during the comment period.
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INDEX TO SPEAKERS
SPEAKER PAGE
Project Manager 8
Tim Carroll Mayor's Office 22
David Markowicz Downtown Committee 26
Tarki Heath Partnership Ond. Creek 32
Joe Rainone Armory Square Assoc 34
Aggie Lane Partnership Ond. Creek 37
Joe Heath Hanford Pharmaceuticals 41
Chasz Parker Rescue Mission 46
Gary Bonaparte Partnership Ond. Creek 48
Mick Mather Cultural Resource Council 49
Tom Seals 4th District Councilor 52
Bob Haley Architect 54
Richard Sykes Armory Square Assoc. 58
John Butler Armory Sq Property Owner 60
Irene Callisto Armory Square shop 63
Michael Wolfson Physican 65
Zach Moore 77
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2 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Good evening
3 and welcome to this evening's public hearing
4 on the proposed Clinton Combined Sewer
5 Overflow Abatement Facilities Plan and Draft
6 Environmental Information Document.
7 At this time I would like to officially
8 call the public hearing to order. My name
9 is Sue Miller, and I am Deputy Director of
10 the County's Lake Improvement Project Office
11 in the Department of Water Environment
12 Protection. I welcome you all here tonight
13 and thank you for your interest and your
14 attendance this evening. I will be serving
15 as the Hearing Officer for the hearing this
16 evening.
17 The purpose of this hearing is to inform
18 the public of the public use to be served by
19 the proposed Clinton Street Sewer
20 Improvement Project, the impact of the
21 proposed project on the environment and to
22 receive testimony from residents and other
23 interested parties on the project.
24 All persons attending this hearing are
25 asked to kindly fill out one of the forms in
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2 the back of the room so we have a record of
3 attendance, because all of this information
4 does go to the state Department of
5 Environmental Conservation and the U.S.
6 Environmental Protection Agency. And we
7 want to be able to acknowledge all those who
8 are present this evening and to indicate
9 that there were people present at the public
10 hearing.
11 Cards are on -- on those cards you can
12 indicate if you are interested in speaking
13 this evening or not. And I understand that
14 some didn't know when they were filling out
15 the cards and wanted a line for maybe. But
16 I've taken those, set those that didn't
17 indicate yes or no and we'll ask you later
18 on if you are interested in speaking.
19 The purpose of the Clinton Street Sewer
20 Improvement Project is to eliminate or
21 substantially decrease the negative impacts
22 of eleven existing combined sewer overflow
23 discharge points along Onondaga Creek.
24 The project calls for one regional
25 treatment and storage facility and installa-
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2 tion of pipelines to transport the combined
3 flow to the proposed treatment and storage
4 facility. The site identified for the
5 proposed facility is on a vacant lot owned
6 by the city and currently used for parking
7 in between Clinton Street and Onondaga
8 Creek. The entire project must be completed
9 and operational by January 1st, 2012 under
10 the federal court order.
11 Design of the facilities and the entire
12 project is currently scheduled to be
13 completed by the spring of 2007. Following
14 design, construction is estimated to take
15 about two years. The details of the
16 project, and I must, it is necessary for me
17 to go through all of this even though some
18 of you may know some of this information, it
19 is necessary as part of the hearing process.
20 The details of this project and the
21 reasonable technical alternatives and
22 alternative sites are contained in the Draft
23 Facility Plan and the Draft Environmental
24 Information Document, and are consistent
25 with the amended consent judgment and the
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2 State Environmental Quality Review Act.
3 The Draft Facilities Plan has been
4 marked Exhibit A, and the Draft
5 Environmental Information Document has been
6 marked Exhibit B. And both exhibits are
7 displayed on the back table in this room,
8 and will be received as part of the record
9 of these proceedings.
10 The Draft Facilities Plan and Draft
11 Environmental Information Document were
12 prepared by the county and submitted to the
13 state Department of Environmental
14 Conservation and to the US EPA on November
15 21, 2005. These documents, those were in
16 draft form, these documents form the basis
17 of the proposed action and are the subject
18 of tonight's hearing. Copies of these
19 documents, including the maps of the
20 proposed project area, have and will
21 continue to be available for review on the
22 county's website at www.ongov.net or go to
23 www.lakeonondaga.ny.us or at the Galleries
24 Library on South Salina Street.
25 A transcript of the public hearing, all
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2 written comments and Responsiveness
3 Summaries compiled as a result of the
4 previous public meeting that we had in
5 November, and this hearing tonight, will be
6 part of the county's Environmental Review
7 and Site Acquisition Process. And will also
8 be provided to the US EPA for use and
9 consideration in preparation of
10 environmental findings pursuant to the
11 National Environmental Policy Act as part of
12 the county's application for federal
13 financial assistance.
14 A Responsiveness Summary for the
15 previous meeting held on November 29, 2005
16 in this same room was compiled, and copies
17 were sent to participants in those meetings
18 as well as placed in the library and on our
19 website.
20 At this time I would like to introduce
21 John Clare, who is project manager for the
22 Clinton Project, who will give a very brief
23 overview of the contents of the Facility
24 Plan and Draft Environmental Information
25 Document. John.
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2 PROJECT MANAGER CLARE: Thank you, Sue.
3 The Draft Facilities Plan is essentially
4 what it says. Within the facilities plan,
5 it's basically a conceptual document that
6 looked at a number of different alterna-
7 tives, both alternatives for different
8 technologies. It documents the magnitude of
9 the issue that we're trying to deal with.
10 Right now there is on an average annual
11 basis a little over 225 million gallons of
12 combined sewage that enters Onondaga Creek
13 from eleven points between Oneida Street and
14 Fayette Street that goes down Onondaga Creek
15 and ends up in the lake. This combined
16 sewage causes violations of bacteria
17 standards in the lake, and other violations.
18 So what the Facilities Plan did is
19 looked at the magnitude of the project,
20 documented it, looked at various alternatives
21 of technology to abate that system,
22 evaluated those different alternatives.
23 There were probably about eight to ten
24 different technology alternatives looked at.
25 Once we looked -- once we settled on a
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2 narrowed group of alternatives that would
3 work we looked at alternative sites for
4 those alternatives. There were seven
5 different sites looked at within the general
6 area. Those sites were evaluated to
7 determine the best fit for the alternative
8 and the most cost effective site for the
9 facility that would be planned to abate the
10 CSOs.
11 And then the final recommended plan was
12 then optimized. And by optimized I mean we
13 looked at the final plan and said, how can
14 we make this plan just a little bit better?
15 The original plan called for abatement
16 of ten CSOs. In the optimization is a
17 recommendation that we add an eleventh.
18 That is over in near Oneida Street. That
19 CSO right now under the ACJ is scheduled for
20 a sewer separation job. An analysis was
21 completed as part of the optimization. And
22 based on the cost factors involved it was
23 recommended that that flow from that CSO be
24 incorporated into the Clinton Project as the
25 more cost effective alternative. That is
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2 one recommendation as part of the plan.
3 I'd also looked at closure CSOs. And
4 there were two CSOs that were recommended to
5 be permanently closed that could be done
6 cost effectively.
7 The Facilities Plan, as Sue said, calls
8 for a vortex treatment facility within
9 what's referred to as the Trolley Lot. In
10 addition to that facility there is a series
11 of conveyance pipes. And what those
12 conveyance pipes do is intercept the
13 combined sewage overflows before they enter
14 the creek, and carry them, convey them to
15 the facility where the facility and the
16 conveyance pipes either store the overflow
17 and then send it down a force main into the
18 interceptor sewer and on to Metro for
19 treatment.
20 Or in the situation where you have a
21 larger rain storm event where you have
22 larger flows the facility can also provide
23 what's basically primary treatment, take it
24 through vortex, separate out various
25 substances that get into the flow from storm
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2 drains, we call them floatables, as well as
3 provide for a disinfection through
4 chlorination and dechlorination before it's
5 discharged to the creek.
6 So the facility operates only during
7 rainstorm events where you have combined
8 sewer overflows right now. Right now that
9 happens about fifty to sixty times a year.
10 So this facility, essentially will operate
11 about fifty to sixty times a year. It does
12 not operate 7 days a week 24 hours a day
13 like a sewage treatment plant does. It
14 operates only when there is an overflow
15 event and intercepts that overflow and keeps
16 it from going into the creek.
17 Either stores it again, sends it to
18 Metro for treatment or if the magnitude, the
19 volume of the storm is large enough it will
20 remove the floatables and provide
21 disinfection of that flow before it enters
22 Onondaga Creek to kill the bacteria and
23 reduce the floatables.
24 The Environmental Information Document
25 is essentially an environmental analysis of
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2 the project. It looks at both the human
3 environment and the physical environment and
4 the impacts the project will have on that.
5 Obviously for the water quality in the area
6 it's going to be a very positive impact
7 because it's going to remove the 225 million
8 gallons of totally untreated combined sewage
9 that currently enters the creek, runs right
10 through this area, right through Armory
11 Square and down to Onondaga Lake through the
12 inner harbor.
13 The human environment, that means
14 putting the conveyance pipes in, is going to
15 be disruptive. The conveyance pipes, there
16 is essentially three of them: One goes
17 through Armory Square we call it the West
18 Jefferson Street conveyance. That will go
19 essentially from Fayette Street through a
20 parking lot about mid-block just east of
21 Onondaga Creek, go through Walton Street
22 through another parking lot, and behind this
23 building right here, the MOST.
24 Putting that pipe in will probably take
25 between I'd say six to eight months. But
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2 during that time when it goes in there is
3 the potential for interruption to the daily
4 business activities in Armory Square. We
5 don't want that to happen. We have been
6 meeting for several years with representa-
7 tives of the Downtown Committee and the
8 Armory Square Association, working
9 cooperatively with them, come up with a
10 number of what we call mitigation factors
11 that we feel will make the implementation of
12 this pipe much less harmful in the Armory
13 Square area.
14 We're looking - we made agreements that
15 no pipe work will be done during peak
16 holiday periods. We're actually hopeful we
17 can get the pipe started early in the year
18 and get it done before the holiday season
19 starts. But if it can't, the project will
20 have to shut down so that there is no
21 interruption -- or there is no construction
22 ongoing during peak holiday seasons.
23 We're going to maintain pedestrian
24 traffic at all times, maintain access to
25 businesses at all times. We are going to
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2 finance and assist with a very massive
3 public information program for the
4 merchants, for the public in general, so
5 that while there is interruption, if there
6 is traffic detours needed the public will be
7 well aware of what those detours are, when
8 they're in effect. So that when somebody
9 comes down to this area they will know
10 exactly where to go. There will be a
11 multimedia campaign so the people know
12 exactly what's going on.
13 During construction we have made a
14 commitment to keep the businesses and people
15 in this area totally informed as we go
16 through construction, which is very very
17 important. As issues arise, if there is
18 issues that businesses see that need
19 correction, they will have immediate access
20 to people at the county, as well as the
21 engineering firms and the contractor, so we
22 can sit down and talk about those things and
23 correct them immediately.
24 The people will be informed constantly
25 of the progress of the project, how long
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2 it's going to take, how much longer we've
3 got to go, and there is going to be no
4 surprises. I think one of the things we've
5 talked about with the Armory Square group,
6 with the city and with Dave Mankowicz, is
7 the example that Walton Street bridge had,
8 which had again potential to really disrupt
9 Armory Square. It was a good model and we
10 intend to use that model of keeping the
11 Armory informed on what's going on.
12 We've got other conveyances that are
13 going to go around West Street through the
14 back way into the Trolley Lot as well as
15 near West Onondaga Street. All these are
16 going to require traffic detours from time
17 to time. Again, all those detours will be
18 well publicized. So there shouldn't be any
19 traffic problems.
20 We will stagger any street closings. We
21 won't have streets in the same area closed
22 at the same time. We're going to try to
23 make this as painless as possible. We think
24 that with the cooperation that we have seen
25 so far and the discussions we've had so far,
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2 we can do a good job with it and have the
3 least amount of disruption possible.
4 I think that's about it. I'll be quiet
5 so you can start giving -- oh, one other
6 thing, I just want to talk about the West
7 Jefferson Street conveyance because there is
8 something a little bit different.
9 In the Facility Plan it called for
10 construction of the middle of Fayette Street
11 and the pipe going all the way around the
12 back of this building through the access
13 tunnel into the Trolley Lot. We've started
14 design of the conveyances, preliminary
15 design, and our design engineers have come
16 up with what they think is a much better way
17 to do it.
18 And they will put the major construction
19 near Fayette Street, now proposed that it be
20 in the parking lot that's owned by SIDA,
21 that there would be an underground structure
22 there instead of the middle of Fayette
23 Street. That will result in the closure of
24 Fayette Street being a fraction of what it
25 would have been otherwise.
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2 And also rather than taking the pipe all
3 the way around the back of the MOST and
4 through the access tunnel they've decided
5 that it would be better to, it would be more
6 cost effective and better for the community
7 to tunnel that pipe underneath the railroad
8 tracks just as it gets onto West Jefferson
9 Street, shortly after it gets on West
10 Jefferson Street behind the MOST.
11 That will reduce again, the amount of
12 disruption and construction that has to
13 occur in this area. And will be able to
14 maintain access through the tunnel into the
15 lot constantly through construction. And it
16 will shorten the overall construction period
17 for the overall conveyance pipe in general.
18 So those are I think all good things
19 that are coming out. And as we get into
20 other design things with - the engineers are
21 charged with, and what they're dedicated to
22 do is to find ways to do this project that
23 will be less disruptive to the community.
24 Thank you.
25 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Well, we have a
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2 full house this evening and I encourage you,
3 there are seats here, there are seats over
4 there; come on in so you're not having to
5 stand the whole time. There are seats up
6 front here and we do want to make sure there
7 aren't any aisles blocked, if that's
8 possible, we need to do that.
9 I need to tell you how this hearing was
10 publicized so it goes on the record. We
11 publicized this hearing in the following
12 manner:
13 Legal notices were placed in the
14 Syracuse Post Standard, appearing on Monday
15 January 9, 2006, and in the State Environ-
16 mental Notice Bulletin on January 25, 2006.
17 Notices of the hearing were directly
18 mailed to 250 persons and businesses, many
19 of you are here this evening, as well as
20 local officials, and other interested
21 parties.
22 Display ads were purchased and appeared
23 in the Syracuse New Times, in the February
24 8th through 15th edition, and in the
25 Syracuse Post Standard on Wednesday, the ad
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2 appeared Wednesday, February 15th.
3 The news media was informed and local
4 environmental reporter Mark Weiner has had
5 two feature articles published in the Post
6 Standard on the Clinton Project and hearing
7 recently. One appeared on January 16, 2006
8 and the other appeared in today's paper,
9 February 22nd, and resulted in a number of
10 students calling my office.
11 Certified letters were mailed out on
12 February 2, 2006 to all the property owners
13 of properties expected to be purchased for
14 the project. Some of you are here this
15 evening.
16 Copies of the Responsiveness Summary for
17 the November 29th Public Informational
18 meeting were mailed, along with notices of
19 the hearing, to all those who participated
20 in the meeting and other interested parties.
21 Some of you got two notices of the meeting
22 as a result.
23 Copies of the Facility Plan, the Draft
24 Environmental Information Document and the
25 Responsiveness Summary and the notice of the
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2 public hearing were posted on the county's
3 website and made available at the Galleries
4 library.
5 We'll also point out to you that we
6 accept written comments as well as oral
7 statements. I have a sheet in the back for
8 written comments. If you would care to take
9 one of those and submit it this evening or
10 you can mail it in using that comment sheet
11 or your own, mail it in to John Clare at the
12 county Department of Water Environment
13 Protection, 650 Hiawatha Boulevard, the
14 address is on the information or via
15 electronic mail to him at
16 johnclare@ongov.net. The deadline for those
17 written comments is March 23rd, 2006.
18 I would like to remind you that we have
19 John Drury here this evening, from Action
20 Reporting, and he will be doing the full
21 transcription of this meeting, which is
22 required by DEC and EPA. Therefore, we ask
23 that all who wish to give testimony begin
24 your statement by stating your name and
25 address for assistance to John in recording
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2 this meeting.
3 Again, all those wishing to speak at
4 this hearing are asked to indicate it on the
5 form in the back of the room. We'll call on
6 people from the cards received.
7 And I just want to explain for those of
8 you that may not have attended one of these
9 hearings before, that this is the hearing
10 format. Meaning that the county will not be
11 responding to questions or comments, it is
12 your opportunity to make statements,
13 comments. We will not be responding. It's
14 a hearing format. So that's what it is this
15 evening.
16 I would add that if time allows, those
17 of us from the county will be here after the
18 meeting and would be glad to meet with you
19 informally if you have some questions just
20 as we were before the meeting. We'll be
21 here a little while after the meeting and
22 would be glad to talk to any of you about
23 this project.
24 I'll ask the speakers to come up front
25 please, and speak from this podium with the
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2 microphone. I'm going to call on those who
3 have filed cards and said Yes, first. Then
4 I will call on those that didn't indicate
5 yes or no. And I remind you to please state
6 your name and address for the record when
7 you begin. And if at any time John is not
8 hearing you or we're not hearing you, he may
9 say speak up. But is this carrying okay,
10 can you people in the back hear all right?
11 All right. I invite you once again to have
12 a seat, it may be a while to be standing.
13 I call on Tim Carroll, representing the
14 mayor's office.
15 TIM CARROLL: Thank you, Sue, and thank
16 you John. Good evening everyone. My name
17 is Tim Carroll, director of operations for
18 the city of Syracuse, the address is City
19 Hall, Syracuse, 13202.
20 Mayor Driscoll asked that I share his
21 concerns about the county's plan to build a
22 sewage treatment plant that's been described
23 briefly tonight. Earlier this week a letter
24 went out from the mayor to downtown business
25 and properties owners outlining his concerns
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2 and thoughts on the subject, and I'll file a
3 copy with Sue later.
4 But briefly I want to touch on some of
5 the mayor's concerns. The mayor's main
6 question frankly is, why use one of the
7 city's most valuable pieces of waterfront
8 property for a sewage treatment plant when
9 we have another option?
10 The mayor believes that the discussion
11 we're about to begin tonight and in the
12 weeks and months ahead should not just be
13 about the cheapest, building the cheapest
14 sewage plant or about replacement parking,
15 but also about the brightest vision for
16 Armory Square, that downtown region in
17 general, and frankly our entire region.
18 Now the mayor understands the difficult
19 challenges the county faces in its Lake
20 Clean Up Plan mandated by the federal
21 government and appreciates the works that's
22 gone into it thus far. But he does not
23 agree that these sewage treatment plants are
24 the best use of city land.
25 The Midland Avenue plant displaced the
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2 residential neighborhood, and now our
3 community faces a decision on whether to
4 place another sewage plant here in Armory
5 Square at a time when this district has
6 emerged as one of the top entertainment
7 districts in the region and one of the
8 finest residential, fastest growing
9 residential regions in Syracuse.
10 The mayor believes the use of the
11 Trolley Lot is short-sighted. The mayor
12 asked us to consider what's going on in just
13 the few blocks around us: The city is
14 finishing construction of the Creek Walk
15 reaching from Armory Square to Onondaga
16 Lake. Syracuse University School of
17 Architecture opened recently adding 800
18 students in the warehouse a block away here
19 to the downtown neighborhood community. New
20 apartments are being built down the street
21 here at Walton and Franklin Street. And
22 developers have submitted plans to the city
23 for exciting mixed use development, and
24 other undeveloped parcels in and around
25 Armory Square.
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2 The mayor has asked us to imagine what
3 could be developed in the Trolley Lot: New
4 housing, new residents, new businesses, and
5 then we could have a productive discussion
6 how to relocate and develop new parking
7 opportunities for these exciting projects.
8 The mayor suggests that there is an
9 alternative site available across the street
10 on Dickerson Street -- across the creek
11 rather on Dickerson Street. The county
12 executive and the mayor have had a number of
13 discussions regarding this site. The
14 concern voiced about Dickerson is that it is
15 more costly.
16 But rather than a short term cost the
17 mayor believes that any additional expense
18 should be viewed as a wise long term
19 investment in the region's future. If money
20 is to be the deciding factor, the mayor
21 suggests to the county we enlist the support
22 of our state and federal representatives.
23 Because once the Trolley Lot is gone we will
24 never be able to tap it's vast potential in
25 the overall development of downtown.
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2 I'll end tonight as the mayor did in his
3 letter. "It seems to me," the mayor wrote,
4 "that we are about to make a devastating
5 mistake once again. I only ask you to
6 remember the decision made to locate the
7 ball park on the north side instead of
8 downtown. I'll also ask you to remember
9 that when the Trolley Lot was being
10 considered for the ball park, there were
11 those that said it was not appropriate for
12 that use. Now the mayor asks, is the
13 appropriate use a sewage treatment plant?
14 We think not." Thank you very much.
15 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Thank you, Tim.
16 Our next speaker I will call on Dave
17 Mankowicz from the Downtown Committee of
18 Syracuse. David.
19 DAVID MANKOWICZ: Thank you, Sue. My
20 name is Dave Mankowicz, and I'm the Deputy
21 Director of the Downtown Committee of
22 Syracuse. And I do want to thank the county
23 for arranging the public meeting tonight.
24 One of the things that I want everybody to
25 understand is that a major infrastructure
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2 project like this can have significant
3 impacts on a small business district and a
4 residential district like Armory Square.
5 Armory Square is a very sensitive area,
6 as successful as it is there are fragile
7 small businesses, there are a lot of
8 elements in Armory Square that the historic
9 character of the neighborhood have to be
10 respected, it's critical to their future.
11 We know from past experience in downtown
12 Syracuse when there are major infrastructure
13 projects, such when the city built all the
14 sidewalk improvement projects about 15 years
15 ago, when those - when that work was done
16 and sidewalks were opened up, retail sales
17 in most stores fell anywhere from 30 to 50
18 percent. That was the common experience
19 until those holes were closed up and the
20 sidewalks were put back. So this is not a
21 small project in terms of its impact.
22 The other thing that I want everybody to
23 understand, I think John Clare did point
24 out, is that under the project proposals the
25 conveyance pipes are the piece of the
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2 project that come directly through Armory
3 Square. They will be there whether the
4 plant is on the east side of the creek or
5 the west side of the creek; it's the same
6 conveyance pipe. It will be there whether
7 or not the technology used is the RTF that
8 the county suggests or storage that some of
9 the other folks have suggested. The
10 conveyance pipes are still there in the same
11 locations. And those are the things that
12 will generate a great deal of impact in the
13 Armory Square area.
14 So we appreciate the types of things
15 that John talked about, anything that cuts
16 down the length of construction, anything
17 that will help lower those impacts, and the
18 types of mitigation measures that were
19 outlined. And John, I want to thank you for
20 going through that, you saved me a whole big
21 chunk of speech here, and I will say that if
22 you stipulate to do all that we would be in
23 great shape.
24 There are a couple of things though that
25 we do want to touch on specifically in that
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2 mitigation package that was discussed.
3 First of all in the parking, the parking
4 issues. We will have, in the short term,
5 significant impacts on Armory Square again.
6 Two parking lots are going to have to be
7 closed while that conveyance pipe is being
8 built.
9 We have asked the county to help us to
10 consider relocation of the monthly tenants
11 who use those lots by giving them some
12 incentive to go to some parking lots that
13 are further away. And we think that that
14 would be something that would help people do
15 that through that period.
16 We are also concerned about the proposed
17 parking garage, the replacement parking
18 garage that was suggested to be on the site
19 of the plant on the west side, over on the
20 other side of the railroad embankment.
21 Personally we don't think that really does
22 anything for downtown. That's too far away
23 to be effective. In order to be effective
24 and to help Armory Square any replacement
25 parking needs to be built on the east side
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2 of the railroad embankment, in close
3 proximity to Armory Square.
4 And we think there is a great
5 opportunity for cooperation between the
6 city, county and the private sector if that
7 replacement parking is built. It also
8 generates the possibility of being able to
9 attract a major development project that
10 might not otherwise get built because of the
11 difficulties of replacing parking.
12 And we have asked the county, and
13 probably one of the few things they didn't
14 want to do, but we have asked the county to
15 look at the possibility of assisting the
16 businesses, and during the period of
17 construction, again of the conveyance pipes,
18 assisting them with the rents during those
19 periods. We know there are going to be lost
20 sales, we know their expenses aren't going
21 to change but their revenues are going to be
22 down. We suggested that those that are in
23 close proximity to the project receive some
24 sort of special consideration and
25 assistance with regard to their rents during
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2 that period.
3 I also do want to mention the Armory
4 Square Association representatives are here,
5 they will talk more about some of the
6 specifics of the mitigation that's really
7 necessary for us. I also do want to mention
8 on the other side, the west side of the
9 creek, Hanford Pharmaceutical is located
10 there. Hanford, again, has some significant
11 issues with regards to those conveyance
12 pipes wrapping right around its building.
13 They're a major employer, they're critical
14 to us, they've been growing, they're what we
15 really want to see in terms of biotechnology
16 development in the community, and that's a
17 great asset to us. So we certainly want to
18 make sure that their interests are protected
19 through this process as well.
20 But I do want to just take the last
21 second to thank again the county, they have
22 worked with us, probably been over two or
23 three years, where there's been a series of
24 meetings where they have taken on all these
25 issues. They have listened, they have
0032
1 Tarki Heath
2 responded. And I do thank them for taking
3 this serious issue and working with us on it.
4 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Thank you, Dave.
5 Tarki Heath, on behalf of the Partnership
6 for Onondaga Creek. Tarki.
7 TARKI HEATH: My name is Tarki Heath,
8 and I live in Tully. I am with the Partner-
9 ship for Onondaga Creek, but today I'm here
10 on behalf of Bruce Block, who couldn't make
11 it to the meeting, he's away on business.
12 And he asked me to read a letter on his
13 behalf.
14 He writes: "Many of you may remember
15 the days of the Antique Underground and my
16 involvement with Armory Square Association.
17 In those days we were as much pioneers as we
18 were business people. We hoped to be able
19 to combine doing what was best for the
20 community along with creating a prosperous
21 business climate.
22 I have read the mayor's letter and
23 support his wisdom that the proposed sewage
24 plant is not the best use for the Trolley
25 Lot, and that continuing to pollute Onondaga
0033
1 Tarki Heath (Block)
2 Creek is to compromise the future economic
3 development for our region. Just look at
4 Onondaga Lake and you can see how pollution
5 has taken from us a vital resource for
6 recreational and economical development.
7 You have seen how the political
8 machinery and its self interests are, and
9 how that has driven this city in the wrong
10 direction before. To allow it to do so and
11 not take a stand against, compromises the
12 future for all of us.
13 This once was a great city, one of the
14 best in the nation. There are still
15 wonderful people who live here and work
16 here. Consider the future and the decisions
17 we make today, for that will be our
18 tomorrow.
19 I heard a man speak about his lessons
20 that he obtained in life; about the lessons
21 he learned from Onondaga Creek; about his
22 sense of appreciation, self, and the values
23 he learned from Onondaga Creek. What will
24 be the lessons learned from that creek of
25 tomorrow?
0034
1 Rainone
2 Neither the creek nor the community
3 should be compromised. We know there are
4 better technologies that would keep all
5 discharges out of the creek. That is really
6 what should be - we should be pressing for.
7 I still consider Armory Square with much
8 affection and wish you all well in your
9 personal and professional endeavors."
10 Signed Bruce Block.
11 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Joe Rainone
12 from the Armory Square Association.
13 JOE RAINONE: I'm Joe Rainone of 239
14 West Fayette, Syracuse, 13202. I'm the
15 President of the Armory Square Association.
16 The Association has not taken a formal stand
17 on the technology nor the location of the
18 proposed facility. We leave that to people
19 with more knowledge in those regards.
20 What we have done though is formed that
21 Mitigation Committee with Dave Mankowicz of
22 the Downtown Committee, with Richard Sykes,
23 Timothy George and David Hoyne. And we have
24 been in good faith talks with the county on
25 many of these issues about the construction
0035
1 Rainone
2 of the conveyance pipe, because that's going
3 to be the biggest impact on the businesses
4 and the residents in Armory Square. No
5 matter where they put the facility we're
6 going to have to put that conveyance pipe
7 along the creek.
8 And in those conversations, I have a
9 sheet here of components that I would like
10 to put into the record when I'm done after
11 Richard is done. But I'm going to touch on
12 just four of the things that the county is
13 going to be giving us funds for.
14 There is an Armory Square Public
15 Information Program which John Clare touched
16 on earlier, that's going to allow us, let
17 everyone know that Armory Square is still in
18 business and will be available for, you
19 know, people's use as it always will be and
20 always has been. And that number is
21 $100,000, which is quite a significant sum.
22 The Armory Square Special Event Fund,
23 they are going to allow us to have special
24 events in conjunction with the construction.
25 So that, you know, once again we can bring
0036
1 Rainone
2 people down here to let them know that we're
3 still in business. That was very important
4 us to.
5 The Armory Square Beautification Effort,
6 the largest number altogether, $150,000,
7 which is so important to us because we've
8 been here for 15, 16 years, back when they
9 started moving in, all the pioneers started
10 coming in. And really hasn't been that much
11 effort made to keep the place beautiful.
12 And I think this will allow us, you know,
13 we've been in talks with the - we have
14 another committee from the association with
15 the Syracuse University in regards to
16 turning the entranceway here by West Street
17 into a nice entranceway, and this will help
18 us do that.
19 Then there will be additional mainte-
20 nance during construction, you know if we
21 need signage and other things for direc-
22 tionals and things likes that. That's a sum
23 of $l0,000. For a total of $285,000 that
24 the county has been willing to assign to us.
25 And we think that, you know, their efforts
0037
1 Lane
2 in this regard has been very very valuable
3 to the Armory Square and the Association.
4 So, thank you.
5 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Thank you, Joe.
6 You'll have that after?
7 JOE RAINONE: Yes.
8 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Aggie Lane from
9 the Partnership for Onondaga Creek.
10 AGGIE LANE: I'm Aggie Lane from the
11 Partnership for Onondaga Creek. I'm a city
12 resident, live on 340 Midland Avenue, two
13 blocks from the sewage plant they are con-
14 structing there. This is a public hearing
15 about the Clinton Street CSO proposal,
16 right?
17 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Right.
18 AGGIE LANE: According to EPA's CSO
19 policy the affected public is supposed to be
20 involved in a meaningful way. The policy
21 says in developing its long term CSO control
22 plan the permittee will employ a public
23 participation process that actively involves
24 the affected public in the decision-making
25 to select the long term CSO controls. Select.
0038
1 Lane
2 The affected public includes: rate
3 payers, industrial users of the sewer
4 system, persons who reside downstream from
5 the CSOs, persons who use and enjoy those
6 downstream waters, and any interested
7 person. Again, select.
8 This public process which this public
9 hearing is part of is bankrupt. Before the
10 Harbor Brook or the Clinton public informa-
11 tional meetings had even happened the county
12 for both basins had already awarded to CDM
13 and CNS the design contract for the
14 conveyances, and awarded to EEA the design
15 contract for the RDFs. The county's
16 consultants are designing, as the county and
17 the New York's DEC is patiently waiting,
18 excuse me, patiently listening to us, the
19 affected public.
20 Something is wrong with this process.
21 The cart is before the horse. But besides
22 these meaningless hearings there is some
23 bullying that is going on. The community
24 fought hard for the right to be heard
25 regarding the Midland CSO control plan to be
0039
1 Lane
2 part of the selection process; the selection
3 of the CSO technology. Even though the
4 community didn't get what the New York DEC
5 said was possible and the county knew was
6 doable, the community did get a CSO plan
7 that was environmentally and socially better
8 than the first huge force forward plant that
9 the county proposed on a residential block
10 of Oxford and Blaine. The county downsized
11 the Midland RTF. They pushed it on Centro's
12 property. And then they added storage; more
13 storage than they had.
14 But the community was punished for
15 speaking up. The county did not finish the
16 mitigation process with the community. The
17 contentious struggle for a better technology
18 was not lost on Clinton and the Harbor Brook
19 basins. Harbor Brook residents weren't
20 thrilled about their CSO plans. But they
21 want to make sure they get sidewalks, they
22 get trees, and maybe something for their
23 schools. So they're going along with it
24 all, including the conveyances that they
25 don't want.
0040
1 Lane
2 And in downtown the Armory Square
3 Association voted not to negotiate or talk
4 about CSO technology, but limited themselves
5 to talk only about mitigation. How short-
6 sighted. So the Association is fine with
7 the county's original plan. The four
8 swirler sewage plant in the Trolley site
9 with very very little storage.
10 One-quarter of the storm is going to be
11 stored. It is the most polluted RTF in
12 their whole system. And guess what, it is
13 slated for the most economically vibrant
14 part of the city. And Armory Square will
15 have a parking garage on top of it.
16 Ironically, as we speak, the community is
17 working on a Creek Revitalization Plan. One
18 would think that clean water is a
19 prerequisite for that creek revitalization.
20 Bottom line, when there is no pushing up
21 against the CSO plan to make it better,
22 either through competing, and I say
23 competing engineering firms, or through an
24 empowered public, and I again say, an
25 empowered public, we all lose, especially
0041
1 Joe Heath
2 future generations.
3 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Joe Heath from
4 Hanford Pharmaceuticals.
5 JOSEPH HEATH: I'm Joe Heath, I have an
6 office at 716 East Washington Street. I'm
7 here in a role that most of you don't know
8 that I have. For the past 20 years I've
9 been the corporate secretary at the Hanford
10 Manufacturing Company. We have two
11 facilities in the city of Syracuse. We're
12 one of the few manufacturing facilities in
13 Syracuse. We're one of the few expanding
14 manufacturing facilities in Syracuse.
15 And we're here to talk about the impact
16 of this improper plan on the company, but
17 also more importantly on our community.
18 We're here to support the mayor's letter and
19 his opposition to this bad technology. When
20 we first heard about this plan, and I'll
21 show you why Hanford is probably the most
22 significantly negatively impacted of anybody
23 that's going to get up here. When we first
24 heard about this, we read about it in the
25 paper. Because one of the pieces of
0042
1 Joe Heath
2 property that Hanford has was the Number 2
3 site for this plant. And I wrote a long
4 letter to the county at that time, and since
5 then we've been taken off that list.
6 But you need to understand what the
7 Hanford Company represents to this community.
8 It was founded in 1846, it's run by the
9 fifth generation, George Hanford. His son,
10 the sixth generation, is working his way up
11 in the company. We have two plants in
12 Syracuse, one on Oneida Street near, within
13 a block of the creek there, but our new
14 facility, the one that I helped, and the
15 city in its Economic Development Department,
16 helped us put up on West Street, was put
17 there in the late '80s.
18 It was a struggle with some of the other
19 management that - should we locate in the
20 city? But we did. We created over 150 jobs
21 there in the meantime, high paying, high-
22 tech jobs. We hire as much as we can from
23 the city. This is the sort of thing that
24 our community needs.
25 And the thanks for that now is that
0043
1 Joe Heath
2 we're going to be directly across the street
3 from this sewage plant. We took an old
4 warehouse in the late '80s that was
5 abandoned, just sitting there. Probably
6 most of you remember West Street at the
7 time. Here's the Trolley Lot, here's
8 Hanford. We've cleaned up this block, we
9 added onto the warehouse and we put in a
10 high-tech sterile penicillin -- not
11 penicillin, antibiotic facility. We have
12 two Class 100 clean rooms there. We bring
13 major pharmaceutical companies to this area
14 as proposed and respective customers.
15 And now we're going to bring them into
16 our lot if we can get them there after all
17 these pipes go around it. And they're going
18 to say, what's that thing across the creek
19 there? And we're going to have to say, it's
20 a sewage plant.
21 It's not the right technology. We're
22 condemning that creek to be a sewage
23 conveyance and we need to do the right thing
24 here. We need to separate the sewers more
25 and to put underground storage in. We know
0044
1 Joe Heath
2 that the pipes are where they are, we know
3 that regardless of which technology you use
4 you have to build it in that location
5 because that's where the pipes converge.
6 But for our children's sake we're asking the
7 county to do the right thing here.
8 We also know, I know from other work
9 around the Midland plant that if you build
10 this kind of a facility you have operation
11 and maintenance costs of at least half a
12 million dollars a year that will compound
13 against the rate-payers. So that the cost
14 savings that they say we have now are eaten
15 up, and those are paid by our local people.
16 They're not paid by the federal and state
17 dollars that are coming in to build most of
18 these facilities. Those we're all going to
19 be saddled with.
20 And so we're very much in favor of creek
21 revitalization. When the ballfield was
22 proposed over on the west side Hanford was
23 working with those planners. We were
24 willing to give up property over there even
25 though we intend to expand over there. We
0045
1 Joe Heath
2 intend to put in other facilities over
3 there. We bought the Dupli (phonetic)
4 building, we bought all of the property
5 between Fabius and West Street. We intend
6 to put another facility there. And now we
7 learn that we're going to have a conveyance
8 pipe running down the middle of the street.
9 We are going to be saddled with a conveyance
10 pipe running along West Street, which is our
11 truck facility that comes into that plant.
12 If we lose one day of operation we lose over
13 $150,000 of product. One day. The trucks
14 have to get in there and out.
15 Now the county has been there, I'm sure
16 they'll come back and try to work with us.
17 But you cannot put a pipe three feet deep 25
18 foot in the ground without disrupting the
19 manufacturing facility that you're running
20 beside. Not only does it run on West
21 Street, it's going to run down Tully Street
22 on the other side of our facility, and it's
23 going to run in a block that we intend to
24 expand in. This is not good planning. It
25 is not what we need.
0046
1 Parker
2 We all know how desperately we need
3 manufacturing jobs. And those are being
4 jeopardized by this. If we have to go
5 through this pain we should do the right
6 thing. Hanford supports the city and the
7 mayor and the community and wants to see the
8 creek totally cleaned up, totally revitalized.
9 Thank you.
10 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Chasz Parker
11 from the Rescue Mission.
12 CHASZ PARKER: Good evening, I'm Chasz
13 Parker, I'm the Executive Director of the
14 Rescue Mission here in Syracuse; our address
15 is 155 Gifford Street. The Rescue Mission
16 in 2002 and again in 2004 and now today
17 reiterate the position that we have
18 consistently stated. That the placement of
19 the RTF on Dickerson Street would be
20 detrimental to the homeless and to our
21 community.
22 These are individuals that are rebuild-
23 ing their lives. Based on the information
24 that we have been given from the project
25 managers and our own engineering consultants,
0047
1 Parker
2 the Rescue Mission cannot possibly support
3 the location of the treatment plant on our
4 grounds, which is at the Dickerson Street
5 site.
6 It is clear that a project of this
7 magnitude would severely compromise our
8 programs over the prolonged construction
9 period. We consider this disruption
10 occurring within a hundred feet of our
11 primary facility to be detrimental to all
12 the homeless and needy individuals that
13 depend on the services the Rescue Mission
14 provides every day 24 hours a day.
15 The Rescue Mission is the largest
16 provider of emergency shelter services in
17 our community, and daily prepared meals.
18 Currently over 200 individuals stay at our
19 programs overnight, and then we serve over
20 600 meals a day as well as provide hundreds
21 of others educational, vocational,
22 recreational and spiritual services on our
23 five campus -- five building campus located
24 on Dickerson and Gifford Street.
25 We are concerned as it is with the plan
0048
1 Parker
2 that will bring disruption to our campus by
3 the closing of Gifford and Dickerson Street
4 by the placement of the pipes. The place-
5 ment of this site next to the Rescue Mission
6 will harm some of the most vulnerable people
7 of our community. It is our focus at the
8 Rescue Mission to be part of a community
9 solution. We want a cleaner lake. We want
10 a better creek because we live right there
11 on the creek at the Rescue Mission and have
12 been located right along the creek for some
13 time.
14 But we don't feel that sacrificing our
15 campus at the Rescue Mission for those
16 people who are taking courageous steps to
17 rebuild their lives and get back on their
18 feet and be part of this community should be
19 affected by moving this facility onto the
20 Dickerson Street site.
21 So the Rescue Mission stands opposed to
22 moving the facility to the Dickerson Street
23 site. Thank you.
24 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Gary Bonaparte,
25 Partnership on Onondaga Creek.
0049
1 Bonaparte & Mather
2 GARY BONAPARTE: Hi, my name is Gary
3 Bonaparte. I just got up here to say that I
4 think that the county needs to do a better
5 job to clean up the creek. I have lived
6 along this creek all my life and I played
7 along it as a small child. We knew then not
8 to get in the water. But it's always been
9 an attractive place to play for kids. When
10 they built the plant on Midland Avenue they
11 said they were going to try to mitigate it
12 for the community. And I didn't see much
13 mitigation happening there.
14 And I would just wish that the county
15 would keep their word when they tell us that
16 they're going to do something that they'll
17 do it. Also I don't like the technology
18 they're using here. Thank you.
19 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Thank you, Gary.
20 Mick Mather, Cultural Resources Council.
21 MICK MATHER: Again, my name is Mick
22 Mather, I work at the Cultural Resources
23 Council, that's 411 Montgomery Street,
24 Syracuse, 13202. I'm an artist. I'm also
25 an arts administrator working with the
0050
1 Mather
2 Cultural Resources Council. I've heard a
3 lot of talk on this issue for a number of
4 years. Something is going to happen, nobody
5 knows what.
6 Aggie, in spite of some of the good
7 words you had to say, this may in fact move
8 forward. And in spite of some of the words
9 that other people had to say this is
10 probably going to move forward. To me the
11 question is not for our neighbors that are
12 already here, we know what the issues are,
13 not necessarily for our children, although
14 we're trying to make something better for
15 them, but for me it's for people who haven't
16 yet moved here.
17 To take that section of waterfront
18 property that the city has presently defined
19 and put it to this bad use seems ridiculous
20 to me and irresponsible and not right.
21 Three things happened this week. Number
22 one, I had a meeting with an ESF grad
23 student. We fulfilled that meeting. Number
24 two, we walked the creek today. And number
25 three, I found out about this meeting just
0051
1 Mather
2 before that creek walk happened.
3 And I mean to tell you that the section
4 through downtown and through that area where
5 the parking lot is now, where they want to
6 put this treatment plant, the opportunities
7 for public art alone, let alone commercial
8 and residential development along that
9 waterfront property in the future, regardless
10 of the parking issue, I don't believe I ever
11 expected that that particular piece of
12 property would stay a parking lot forever.
13 But to use it for a sewage treatment
14 plant when we need opportunities for a
15 corridor for a cultured trail, a creek walk,
16 whatever you want to call it, from the
17 Nation to the lake, this is just wrong. And
18 I'm against it. Publicly on the record I
19 think this should not happen. That isn't
20 going to fix the problem, as Dave Mankowicz
21 said I think, with the issues of disrupting
22 business because the pipelines have to go in
23 anyway.
24 But if I were to say what I would like
25 to see happen it would be further forward
0052
1 Seals
2 thinking to design a public pipe - a
3 conveyance pipeline, since one has to go in,
4 that doesn't include creek-side activity at
5 all, so that we can have good people,
6 architectural planners, designing the
7 landscape, architects and ESF repairing or
8 reparation people come in and return that
9 creek to what it really could be and should
10 be for the growth and development of the
11 community development of this area of
12 Syracuse, New York. Thank you.
13 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Thank you.
14 Councilor Tom Seals, Fourth District Councilor.
15 COUNCILOR TOM SEALS: District Councilor,
16 Fourth Council District. I have been in
17 public hearings where people come up to the
18 microphone and talk but this is one of the
19 few times that I have been one where I have
20 to talk.
21 I stand opposed to the sewage treatment
22 plant and I represent the Fourth Council
23 District which puts me in a unique situation.
24 I have the south side and also the downtown.
25 So even Armory Square, I'm in sympathy with
0053
1 Councilor Seals
2 the Armory Square and I stand with them.
3 But what I want to say is that when this
4 idea first came up down on the south side at
5 Midland Avenue, Oxford, they tried to push,
6 they tried to stop it, but you know, they're
7 still working on it every day progressing,
8 keep on going. So now they're down here in
9 Clinton Square, Armory Square. Armory Square.
10 The constituents on the south side, we
11 were promised so many millions of dollars
12 would be took off the table because we spoke
13 up. They promised that after they build the
14 treatment, sewage treatment plant, that they
15 would give, put some trees, some shrubbery.
16 And what they really promised us to do, they
17 took off the table.
18 But now we get to down here and you guys
19 are going to get a parking garage, they're
20 going to take $3 million and put it here;
21 but the south side, nothing. We, like I
22 say, I like for the Armory Square -- I
23 didn't even want to come down here, but
24 since it's something that we can't stop, but
25 it should be a way that if the county comes
0054
1 Haley
2 back to the south side, shrubbery, trees is
3 good, but we want something concrete.
4 You, when you're driving around, come
5 down South Avenue, cut down Castle Street,
6 come down Midland Avenue and see the mess
7 that's going on. And the same thing is
8 going to happen here. One civil rights
9 worker said, and it's true now, "Injustice
10 to one is injustice to us all." Thank you.
11 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Thank you,
12 Councilor. Bob Haley. Did you want to
13 speak, Bob?
14 BOB HALEY: While you got me going here,
15 sure.
16 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: You had a
17 question mark.
18 BOB HALEY: Yes, thank you. My name is
19 Robert Haley, I live at 137 Buckingham
20 Avenue, and I have for 35 years in the city.
21 I am an architect in the city but mostly I
22 speak to the general concerns of the
23 difficult design problems.
24 I think that one thing I would just like
25 to say for the record here, I expected a
0055
1 Haley
2 presentation tonight. I didn't see any. I
3 think again, I expected visuals, plans,
4 potentially what it might look like. Even
5 if it's early I think there is probably a
6 lot of a visual issues that could be
7 presented here that aren't being seen. So
8 public hearings shouldn't just be listening
9 to the public. I said this before at TNT
10 meetings, you have to deliver something as
11 professionals to the public for them to
12 respond to. Not to just look to everything
13 they would like to say and not have a more
14 specific agenda.
15 Essentially from a design point of view
16 this is a difficult problem and it has been.
17 The history of the Onondaga Creek from its
18 source in the Onondaga Nation to the hills
19 to the south of us, all the way through its
20 path, through our city and downtown that has
21 been used in different ways, including this
22 which used to be the bog or the muck lands
23 before, long before it was the Armory, and
24 then on to Onondaga Lake.
25 What's significant here is the site of
0056
1 Haley
2 the whole problem, not just one site on the
3 other side of this retaining wall. That has
4 been done to different degrees. I think the
5 county obviously and the engineers have
6 tried to solve a very large problem with ten
7 or eleven overflows, but it goes way beyond
8 that. ESF and the city and the comprehensive
9 plan has been thoroughly documented
10 regarding the quality of Onondaga Creek from
11 its source. And I keep saying that because
12 it's a whole issue. Like any ecosystem you
13 have to design for the whole system.
14 So there are plans, even the Creek Walk
15 which is a long term, probably 15 years ago
16 the Creek Walk was developed and adopted by
17 the city as a worthwhile project. So that
18 that Creek Walk has been expanded upon in
19 its form in part of the heritage trail, as
20 well as expanded by ESF, so that the
21 Onondaga Creek goes through the entire
22 downtown area.
23 The next thing in that comprehensive
24 plan is to take it to the source, to the
25 Onondaga Nation. I think the only other
0057
1 Haley
2 thing that I wanted to speak to was the -
3 that the quality of the downtown is
4 essentially human environment. We should
5 not lose the quality of the creek as a
6 potential human environment for the future
7 of downtown. All the sustainable building
8 principles we're trying to get into the
9 city's comprehensive plan, that are coming
10 into the city's comprehensive plan deals
11 with sustainable issues of essentially
12 environmental quality of the water, as a
13 human experience to treat it and care for
14 it.
15 One other technical thought, in being an
16 architect I always come up with another wild
17 idea, but why couldn't, and I'm sure you
18 studied this, but why can't we use large
19 holding tanks at the source, which might be
20 a radical concept. But let's not forget
21 there is a large tank under Clinton Square
22 that floods the water onto the Clinton
23 Square and takes it off for an evening event.
24 I noticed with just the brief technical
25 knowledge I have, which is by no means
0058
1 Sykes
2 extensive, is that you could hold stormwater
3 in tanks on individual properties and then
4 not have to take the transfer pipes, which
5 may be a bigger problem than the actual
6 plant itself. So there is maybe some
7 options that haven't been investigated,
8 maybe some radical ideas that ought to be
9 thought about to try to solve some of these
10 problems. And that's all I have to say.
11 Thank you.
12 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Richard Sykes,
13 Armory Square Association.
14 RICHARD SYKES: Hi, Richard Sykes of the
15 Armory Square Association. And I actually
16 am a resident and business owner of downtown
17 at 108 West Jefferson Street. And I am
18 going to actually give a talk about some of
19 the things that came up with the meetings
20 we've had with the county regarding the
21 pipes going through and some of the things
22 we've discussed which they have agreed upon.
23 One of them being that they have
24 discussed options regarding the proposed
25 traffic, rerouting traffic and working with
0059
1 Sykes
2 them and minimizing the amount of detours
3 that would have for people to get access
4 into the Armory Square area on Fayette
5 Street and also Walton Street, and see if
6 there is any way that they can go cut the
7 time down that they would actually spend on
8 those streets and affecting traffic in that
9 sense.
10 And also with that same sense in the
11 idea of traffic with - also regards to the
12 issue that numerous people have brought up
13 is the parking. And with these, with the
14 amount of work they're going to be doing
15 here there are going to be a fair amount of
16 people, construction workers, things like
17 that, people of that nature down here
18 working on those. And they have planned to
19 have them have parking off-site, not on the
20 streets, to keep visitors towards and other
21 residents here. To be able to have them to
22 be able to come down here and have available
23 spaces to come to the businesses or to their
24 homes.
25 And then also, keep the public abreast
0060
1 Sykes
2 of, keep them informed of everything that's
3 going on during that, during that time
4 frame. There will be a liaison during the
5 construction time frame, a liaison to report
6 on the progress of things, any problems that
7 may arise or help them to help the community
8 in that sense.
9 And then one of the final things was the
10 actual construction time frame. They are
11 working with us obviously to keep it as
12 minimal as possible. During the holiday
13 season, as they have mentioned earlier, they
14 will not be in at all. And also to minimize
15 the actual construction during the summer
16 months when they are planning on doing that,
17 trying to keep it - keep the traffic flowing
18 as smoothly as possible. For instance
19 weekends and evenings trying to, looking at
20 different options to keep those streets open
21 for visitors to come to the downtown Armory
22 Square area. And those are just some of the
23 things that we had touched upon earlier, and
24 so discussed it with the county.
25 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: John Butler,
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2 are you interested in making a statement?
3 JOHN BUTLER: I wasn't going to speak
4 but I do want to lend my support to every-
5 thing, just everything that everybody has
6 said in opposition to this project. So I
7 own a building across the street at 304 West
8 Jefferson Street, also the property I use
9 for a parking lot that's going to be
10 directly affected by this sewage treatment
11 facility; these conveyance pipes going
12 through my property.
13 Nothing was mentioned yet that I heard
14 about the fact that once you put these pipes
15 through you cannot develop on top of these
16 pipes. And I have a parking lot that has a
17 long history of being developed upon. Going
18 back into the 1800s, I've got a list of
19 different things that were there: General
20 Electric was there, a five story building
21 that burned down in '79, there was a tin
22 shop there. And obviously I want to develop
23 the property. And these pipes are not going
24 to allow me to do that, unless they're
25 either taken out completely or changed in
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1 Butler
2 some way.
3 And I asked the county to help me look
4 at that issue of what I can do to keep that
5 aspect of it. I just don't want to leave it
6 as a parking lot forever. Because this
7 neighborhood has room for growth, and I
8 don't think the sewage treatment plant is
9 going to allow that growth to happen.
10 As some people mentioned, it's a
11 sensitive neighborhood, and once these
12 businesses, if they do have decreased sales,
13 like Dave Mankowicz said, of 30 to 50
14 percent, they're gone and they're not coming
15 back. And attracting new business down here
16 it's just not going to happen.
17 I have, my family has been down here
18 since '73. I have seen the ebbs and flows,
19 and I really want to see a real study of the
20 effects of chlorination and dechlorination
21 of this project. Whether the size of it
22 needs to be that the county proposes,
23 environmental health risks involved, the
24 unsightliness of it. We all want clean
25 water and we care about this neighborhood.
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1 Butler
2 And I just want to go on record that I'm
3 opposed as all the other people that I've
4 talked to in Armory Square are opposed to
5 this project in the shape and form that it
6 is right now.
7 Also I want to say that today I tried to
8 contact an engineer that would help me to
9 look at the preliminary facilities plans
10 that the county says they want to sit down
11 and help me with. And I was very unsuccessful
12 in doing that because it seems that every
13 engineering firm has a conflict of interest
14 in this area because they've done work with
15 the county. And I cannot find an engineer
16 that would help me look at this thing
17 objectively. So that is not only
18 frustrating but it's pathetic as far as I'm
19 concerned. Thank you.
20 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Ruth Floree,
21 were you interested in speaking?
22 RUTH FLOREE: No.
23 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Irene Callisto,
24 were you interested in speaking?
25 IRENE CALLISTO: Hello, my name is Irene
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1 Callisto
2 Callisto, I have a store in Armory Square
3 and I also live in Armory Square. I am on
4 the board of the Armory Square Association
5 and I moved here a year and-a-half ago from
6 Burlington, Vermont. And I picked Armory
7 Square because I felt that it was the best
8 place to be in Syracuse for many reasons.
9 And when I got here I asked people what
10 was going on, you know, I heard many
11 different stories. And the one thing that I
12 heard was that it was a done deal that this
13 treatment plant was going to go in and
14 that's all, that was the end of it. So that
15 we needed to make the best of it.
16 And now I know differently. And I am
17 embarrassed that I didn't have all the facts
18 to begin with. And I hope that we can make
19 the right decision. And we all know what
20 that is. And the right decision is that we
21 need to preserve the creek and we need to
22 do, you know, be looking for the very best
23 technology that is available. And that's
24 all I have to say, thank you.
25 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Pat Hogan.
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1 Wolfson
2 Pat, would you wish to speak?
3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He left, he went to
4 another meeting.
5 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: And Bill Shea,
6 did you wish to speak? Okay, Dr. Wolfson,
7 Michael Wolfson. I see some people getting
8 up and I'm just going to, while Dr. Wolfson
9 is coming up, encourage you to take a
10 written comment sheet if you care to to send
11 it in.
12 MICHAEL WOLFSON: My name is Michael
13 Wolfson, I'm a physician. My area of
14 specialty is toxic exposures. I'm certified
15 in occupational and environmental medicine
16 as well as in the primary care specialty of
17 family practice.
18 Before making some comments about my
19 opposition to this plan I'd like to ask some
20 questions first. I'd like to know, because
21 I missed the beginning of the meeting, I was
22 working, who are the individuals who are
23 running the meeting today? Are you folks
24 from the county?
25 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Yes, doctor,
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1 Wolfson
2 I'm Susan Miller, Deputy Director of the
3 Lake Improvement Project Office and I'm
4 serving as hearing officer for the testimony
5 this evening. And John Clare did a brief
6 presentation, he's the project manager.
7 The purpose of this meeting tonight is
8 simply to receive testimony. As explained
9 earlier we will not be responding to
10 comments or questions. We would be glad to
11 meet with people, if time allows, after the
12 meeting, and answer questions informally.
13 MICHAEL WOLFSON: Well, I believe that
14 questions need to be answered. But, so in
15 other words, those of you who are here, is
16 there anyone here from the DEC?
17 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: There are
18 representatives of the DEC here this evening.
19 MICHAEL WOLFSON: Are those individuals
20 willing to answer questions?
21 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: That is not the
22 format for this evening's meeting, doctor.
23 MICHAEL WOLFSON: Let me ask you, are
24 you familiar with which federal laws govern
25 the building of a facility like this and its
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1 Wolfson
2 impact on the community, very simply?
3 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Doctor, I am
4 not going to get into a discussion or
5 response with you.
6 MICHAEL WOLFSON: Then I will provide
7 that information to people here who are
8 interested. The county has paid since the,
9 what I term and I think I'll just term it
10 the dog and pony show at the zoo, in October
11 of 2002, regarding the building of the
12 Midland Avenue plant and the Armory Square
13 plant, the county has spent - and these are
14 figures I believe are correct, but you would
15 have to check and foil the county to make
16 sure, but I believe these are close
17 estimates to how much money the county has
18 spent for engineering services since October
19 of 2002.
20 In 2002 after the presentation at the
21 zoo or concurrent with it and after the
22 presentation the county spent over, let's
23 see, close to $50,000 until January of 2003.
24 In 2002, I'm sorry, 2002 the total was
25 $123,000 and change. In 2003 it was only
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1 Wolfson
2 42,000 and change. In 2004, $193,000 and
3 change. In 2005 up to the middle of
4 November $144,000. This was just for
5 engineering services.
6 Now I made inquiries starting last May
7 and at the last meeting that was held here a
8 few months ago I characterized the answers I
9 received from the Water and Environment
10 Department as being stonewalled. I still
11 characterize the answers as being stonewalled.
12 It took five months for the department to
13 tell me who had the information about what
14 toxic materials are going to be released as
15 a result of the chlorination process of the
16 sewage at Midland Avenue and the proposed
17 plant here at Armory Square.
18 Now according to my figures if the
19 engineers who were, and they were not just
20 the engineers apparently who wrote the
21 report, the engineers paid, looks like up to
22 half a million dollars between 2002 and 2005
23 by the Water and Engineering Department, you
24 would think they would know to whom they
25 were paying the money and who had the
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1 Wolfson
2 information about what was being released.
3 But they wouldn't give me that information
4 until I pestered them enough. And finally
5 they identified the engineering firm.
6 And then as I noted at the last meeting
7 the engineering firm that did the assessments
8 didn't do any assessment of air quality;
9 only of water quality. Now, they were
10 correct, if anybody is foolish enough to
11 swim in Onondaga Creek or in Onondaga Lake,
12 you probably are not going to notice any
13 worsening of your health status as a result
14 of that.
15 But what was not done, and I have
16 already spoken with the DEC about this as
17 well, what was not done in the past and what
18 has never been done is any health assessment
19 or impact study of what would occur during
20 chlorination and dechlorination at these
21 plants and what would be released into the
22 air. What those of you who live and work in
23 Armory Square or in the Midland Avenue area,
24 and I don't live or work in either place,
25 what you would be breathing on a regular
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1 Wolfson
2 basis as a result of the chlorination
3 process.
4 Now I haven't yet been able to get the
5 assistance into the calculations but the
6 county presented back in 2002 a list of, in
7 its slide show, 41 different toxic materials
8 that would be chemical disinfection
9 byproducts, at least eight or nine of those
10 are cancer causing agents. They also
11 presented a list of measured byproducts, and
12 I'm not sure how they got the difference
13 between the list of 41 and the list of 19,
14 but out of their list of 19 there were five
15 cancer causing agents.
16 The one that's most prominent is
17 chloroform. Chloroform used to be used as
18 an anesthetic until it was found it was too
19 dangerous and deadly to be used as an
20 anesthetic. It is toxic to the fetus during
21 development, it is toxic to the liver, toxic
22 to the kidneys, it causes liver and kidney
23 cancer in animals. It is considered even by
24 the most conservative regulatory and
25 research organizations to be - high likely
0071
1 Wolfson
2 to be a cancer causing agent in humans in
3 kidneys, liver and other organs.
4 And NIOSH, which is the government
5 organization that advises OSHA on workplace
6 standards has considered it to be a
7 carcinogen for over 20 years.
8 Now, in light of all of that and in
9 light of the fact that the county knew that
10 these byproducts were going to be released
11 as a result of the chlorination process it
12 still did no air quality assessment, air
13 modeling or health assessment based on what
14 was going to be breathed in by those of you
15 who live and work in the areas where the
16 treatment plants are located.
17 Now I recognize that our county
18 employees here whose salaries we pay don't
19 want to answer any questions, so I'll give
20 the answers to the questions I would have
21 asked them. And of course as I would
22 normally in a class, I wouldn't let them
23 confer, I would ask them to answer me
24 individually to see if they knew anything.
25 The fact is that chloroform, just taking
0072
1 Wolfson
2 one of the toxics and one of the cancer
3 causing agents, is governed by the Clean Air
4 Act of 1990, that's a federal law. And it's
5 also governed by the Community Right to Know
6 Law. Now I'm not aware -- and in fact I am
7 aware that there has been no assessment of
8 the emissions from either of these plants
9 under the Clean Air Act. And the DEC very
10 honestly told me, no, we have not done any
11 assessment of that. The DEC is charged with
12 enforcing federal regulations that the EPA
13 would normally enforce. So the DEC is
14 responsible for the Clean Air Act
15 enforcement regarding these plants.
16 A health assessment has to be done, and
17 if the risk to the population is too great
18 then the plant can't be built. So the fact
19 is in my view, in my opinion, the Midland
20 Avenue plant has already been under con-
21 struction in violation of the law, because
22 no health risk assessment has been done.
23 I'm told that no health risk assessment
24 has been planned regarding air emissions in
25 Armory Square to date. I would suggest to
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1 Wolfson
2 you that since -- and I'll, I should also
3 add that if you look and compare the air
4 quality regulations in the various states,
5 we are competing with Texas for the worst
6 air quality regulations in the country. The
7 most permissive, the least protective of
8 human health. And that applies to
9 chloroform. I didn't count how many of the
10 other toxics that are being released we have
11 lousy standards for, but even under those
12 standards I think we'll be violating the
13 standards for air quality by the emissions
14 that are going to be coming from these two
15 plants.
16 So I would suggest that for those of you
17 who are concerned about that, that you first
18 of all insist that the DEC do a health risk
19 assessment and go back, and actually they
20 should stop all construction on Midland
21 Avenue until a health risk assessment is
22 done, because the Clean Air Act has already
23 been violated.
24 And the other thing is that for those of
25 you who are really concerned about health I
0074
1 Wolfson
2 would suggest you start pooling your money.
3 Because you do have the option of going to
4 court and stopping this. Or I would ask the
5 city to do its job and stop the construction
6 of Midland Avenue and block the construction
7 of the plant in Armory Square. Because it's
8 pretty clear that these toxic byproducts are
9 going to be in the air, you're going to be
10 breathing them, they're dangerous. And I
11 don't believe that these facilities are safe
12 as planned in these areas of the community.
13 Now, I will tell you as one example
14 again, the chloroform which is certain to be
15 released as a result of disinfecting sewage
16 with chlorine, chloroform hangs around for
17 months. It isn't broken down by what's
18 called photodegradation and sunlight. If
19 there is chloroform released from the plant
20 in Armory Square it's going to hang around
21 here and you're going to be breathing it,
22 and other people who come down here are
23 going to be breathing it for months.
24 So even if you only have nine, ten,
25 eighteen episodes a year where that
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1 Wolfson
2 chloroform is released it means there is
3 going to be chloroform in the air on a
4 pretty constant basis, in my opinion, at
5 this point in time. I can't give you the
6 numbers but I do have some assistance from
7 some colleagues who are donating their time
8 and we'll have some numbers at some time in
9 the future I hope.
10 But again, I would suggest to you that
11 these plants are not safe, that the
12 technology, as one of my colleagues who is a
13 chemist who trained with Linus Pauling in
14 the '50s said, this is 1950s technology, why
15 are they doing this? And he doesn't live in
16 this area. But that was his response when I
17 talked with him about the use of chlorina-
18 tion in these plants.
19 Bottom line is that they're not safe,
20 they're going to put anybody who lives and
21 works in the area at risk. And again, as I
22 say, the county and the DEC have already
23 violated the Clean Air Act and probably the
24 Community Right to Know Law by not being
25 forthcoming about the risks.
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1 Wolfson
2 The other thing that I was informed is
3 that apparently, and I believe this to be
4 true but I haven't been able to confirm it
5 by looking at the documents in writing, that
6 supposedly the individuals or the firm that
7 prepared the document that allowed for the
8 building of the Midland Avenue plant and is
9 supposedly going to allow for the building
10 of the Armory Square plant, I believe what
11 would be termed the SEQR document, which
12 talks about are there any health risks? So
13 the person who wants to build the facility
14 says, no, there are no health risks. That's
15 the way the process works. The fox guards
16 the hen house.
17 So the bottom line is that as a result
18 of the responses given by those who are
19 interested in building the plant, DEC didn't
20 conduct an air quality assessment or a
21 health risk assessment. So this is what you
22 get for your taxes.
23 In any event, I'm willing to answer any
24 questions if there are people who didn't
25 understand anything that I said or if I went
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1 Moore
2 too fast and I'm sorry if I rambled on. But
3 if there is somebody who didn't understand
4 what I had to say I would be happy to answer
5 a question.
6 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: And you can do
7 that in the same way that we will, which is
8 after the meeting. Because we have to
9 allow, this is the time for testimony from
10 others.
11 MICHAEL WOLFSON: Fine.
12 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: It is difficult
13 sometimes in a public hearing setting that
14 you cannot give responses and you cannot
15 solicit questions but that is what we're all
16 dealing with. And Dr. Wolfson will be
17 available afterwards I'm sure, and we will
18 also, to talk with you informally.
19 Those were all of the formal requests to
20 deliver a statement. Is there anyone else
21 at this time who wishes to make a formal
22 statement for the record? Yes, Zach, would
23 you come over here please then.
24 ZACH MOORE: My name is Zach Moore, and
25 I heard a question asked of the county at a
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1 Moore
2 previous public meeting and I think it also
3 applies to this. My understanding that --
4 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Your address?
5 THE WITNESS: Westcott Street, 216. I
6 understand that the federal lawsuit over
7 eminent domain is still pending and in
8 federal court. And the question was posed
9 to the county, and I think all of us kind of
10 deserve some kind of answer formally, what
11 will the county do for this project and for
12 the other projects like Midland and Harbor
13 Brook if it loses in federal court?
14 I mean the county is moving forward with
15 the Midland sewage plant in building it, and
16 yet you could lose in federal court and not
17 have the right to build there. It seems
18 like an enormous waste of money to do that
19 before you actually formally fully have the
20 right to do that. Whether or not a judge
21 says you can do it or not, you could lose in
22 court and you've already spent money, our
23 money and signed contracts to do something
24 that you might not have the right to do down
25 the line. That seems like an enormous risk
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1 Hearing Officer
2 and also has a direct bearing on this
3 project. So I think the county owes us, do
4 you have any contingency plan if that
5 occurs, if you lose in federal court?
6 HEARING OFFICER MILLER: Thank you for
7 your comments. And I will share afterwards
8 with anyone who would care to talk to me
9 about that subject. Right now I want to
10 thank everyone for attending and for your
11 comments. And I do want to encourage you to
12 go to the county's website. All of that
13 information, all of the Facility Plan, all
14 of the responses to many of these questions
15 raised tonight which were written up and
16 given at the public meeting that was held in
17 November are included in the Responsiveness
18 Summary which is also on the website. And I
19 have some copies in the back.
20 Many responses to questions raised this
21 evening can also be found in those documents
22 both on the web and copies in the back.
23 There will be a Responsiveness Summary also
24 compiled on this meeting. And it will be
25 sent to those participating in this meeting.
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1 Hearing Officer
2 We remind you that the written comment
3 period is open until March 23rd. And in
4 addition that you can take the written
5 comment sheets in the back and send them in.
6 Also a transcript, thanks to John, will be
7 compiled on this hearing. And when
8 completed will also be made available to the
9 public. That will be available at our
10 department and in the county clerk's office
11 and at the Galleries library.
12 The county will make a determination and
13 findings of environmental significance
14 concerning this project, its benefits,
15 locations and the sites to be acquired. And
16 the county will finalize then the
17 Environmental Information Document and the
18 Facility Plan which will then be forwarded
19 to DEC for their review and approval.
20 We thank you again for coming. We will
21 be available for a few minutes, they don't
22 leave the MOST open forever, so we'll be
23 available to talk with any of you at the
24 close of this meeting. The meeting stands
25 adjourned.
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Onondaga County Dept of Water Environment Protection